Our church does Re-engage and we love it. Outsourced: How Watermark Community Church Fails in Caring for Its Members, The Spin Cycle Watermark Community Church Members Unlikely to Ever Know the Truth Behind Resignations, Before You Sign: What You Need to Know About Membership Covenants, Making the Cut What Does It REALLY Take to Become a Member at Watermark Community Church, Dallas Megachurch Pastor Todd Wagner Resigns, Cites Pride as the Reason, https://www.watermark.org/about/governance, OUR COMMUNITY SERIES: Being Lonely in a Group of People | To Love, Honor and Vacuum, Leaders trying to drain members in order to live exorbitant lives. I agree, it is all relative, which was kind of my point. Izael who are you to judge someone elses experience? Ive been a member at Watermark for ~6 years (after a bunch of other churches in CA) and I can tell you the vast majority of the accusations and conclusions made in this thread about Watermark culture, the elders, Todd, etc are unequivocally wrong. Show me one bit of Biblical historicity in favor of the modern seeker-oriented megachurch. Where are you getting this information? The elder team is interdependent of each other, creating a system in which it is impossible or highly difficult to discipline or remove any one elder. Prove all things; hold fast that which is good. . If by community you mean confessing every single sin in your life to a group of virtual strangers, disclosing your personal financial information, and seeking the approval of the group to change jobs, buy a house, start a family then no,Read more , Christian community can have so many different levels, and not everyone is seeking the same depth in all relationships. Log In. Most people in the U.S. have a lavish lifestyle compared to most believers around the world. On 05/28/2008 THE STATE OF TEXAS filed a Property - Eminent Domain lawsuit against WATERMARK COMMUNITY CHURCH. The Roys Report seeks to foster thoughtful and respectful dialogue. agreed. Both Wagner and Leventhal will remain at Watermark as elders emeritus. Ive never heard of nor attended a church with such a position. If a member doesnt leave in good standing, WM will pursue that person and enforce church discipline. Several weeks after Leventhals resignation, Wagner separately decided to step down as senior pastor and elder, the churchs statement said.. Its where two or more are gathered not where two or more thousands are gathered. Psychological warfare Is a good name for it. IfRead more , Adding to people in good standing who have zero knowledge of any discipline issues also fear leaving due to verifiable stories where watermark members have harassed and stalked people for leaving in cases where the person leaving has come to realize the place at its core is Not what is represented on its surface and middle layers. The Equipping Podcast 10M ago Sharpen your thinking on issues that matter. Todd had 6 children living at home at the time he was gifted the home.. He springs off of that definition into how true followers of Jesus might be considered a Jesus-cult and how is that a bad thing? If you arent a covenant member at Watermark Church, you cant join a community group, and that is where all the getting involved starts. Staff. 25 years ago, I found myself getting angry atRead more , I was a WM member until I realized that if you fail their morality assessment and they decide you have a pride issue, not a desperate, destitute, homeless or depression issue.. Sure, we made friends with our peers in the class and had fun at summer camp, and it all developed out of normal human interaction. to the homeless person in Dallas, it might be a hot meal and a warm bed, a job, eventually a home of some kind (a room to call their own, a studio, an apartment,). . Regardless we know Romans 8:28 maybe its a season of 2 Tim 3:16-17. Wowza, what does Whoopie have to do with this? I dont know what the tax rate is near Watermark but I doubt I could afford just the taxes & insurance on that house. i dont believe a word he says. The first being last and the last being first is not how most Christians think. Christian Church. Wagner said he is excited about what God is going to do at the church in its next season and urged the congregation to obey their leaders. No its not. Perhaps its appropriate for an elder who retired after many years of exemplary service and is available on occasion to give counsel. A major focus of the Community Groups at Watermark and many other churches is to foster the development of deep connection with a small group of fellow believers that enables true Christian accountability. Ministries. i felt like i was watching and listening to animated cardboard characters. Theres a lot of talk and a lot of Christianese language, but its still impossible to say exactly what happened or exactly what is and was going on. Ill also go into more detail about how Watermark Church does resemble a cult, and how some of their teachings are harmful and potentially abusive. I am praying for you in San Diego CA. I know I often do. Maybe because I have not had a negative experience with elder rule I do not see it as a problem. Wagner is all about control and he lost it. Its all sunshine and roses till you see it firsthand. It is kindness that brings people to repentance. obey your leaders? At least that was my experienceRead more , The house referenced in the post belongs to the correct Todd Wagner. . I wonder what is considered a humble enough lifestyle to please all the rest of us looking in and offering our opinion about something we probably do not know enough about JP ended up leaving because of it. Did You Know This Church Is Closely Aligned with 9 Marx (sic) Products. He was then the most arrogant and disrespectful person imaginable. I dont doubt some unconcionable things happened. Yes WM hides abusers and minimizes victims. Photo taken March 7, 2014. Regardless I loved your passion and pray that Holy Spirit would cover you and lead you in the area that needs correction. Help me to understand. Are you calling smarmy, insincere? It sounds like maybe you want Todd to fall in line with the way you think things should be instead of what is biblical. Leventhal doesnt seem very interested in this whole thing Wagner appears attentive during Leventhals speech but Leventhal seems stand-offish toward Wagner. The whole situation reeks of status and power, neither of which is a good look for a pastor. indoor plumbing plumbing would be a luxury. No One Knows. The only fees were for the materials we used. Related Pages. Give a gift of $30 or more to The Roys Report this month, and you will receive a copy of "Escaping the Maze of Spiritual Abuse" by Dr. Lisa Oakley and Justin Humphreys. Its not a cult. 2 doctrinal statements create confusion over authentic belonging. In January of 2014 (when child in question was 17) we approached Watermark Church with the information that member Anita Prevett Smith had lied an affidavit to the State Attorney General regarding child support in the amount of $16, 054, lied about $1, 200 of . Elder Mickey Friedrich then urged the church not to try and judge whose version of events is right or wrong. The Porch. He began to consider that he was in a cult. There is a filthy rich entrepreneur whose name is Todd Wagner. I would be ok disclosing financial information to my community group. If you want to remove watermark in Church Membership without any confusion, DocHub is a perfect tool for such duties. Elder and staff member David Leventhal stepped down in late March, citing "an erosion of trust" in Wagner's ability to lead. Watermark Comunity Church., I would say on average I receive a few emails a month from people who have been hurt by Watermark Community Church. What does being your authentic self really mean, in the context of community groups? Usually blood in the water attracts sharks, but nothing that fierce here, just a bunch of blood sucking remoras. Amy Smith of the blog Watchkeep has documented her experience there, and it bears much of the hallmarks of a cult. Elder-Rule governance removes any hope of independent accountability the elders are originally self-appointed and thereafter elder-appointed. Really miss your sermons and spirit led preaching. Wow Andy, you got to do more than just Google the name brother. University Park has the advantage though of a much lower tax rate for obvious reasons. Plan Your Visit Discover Watermark Membership Events Watermark News Articles Watermark en Espaol. As for two doctrinal statements, our church has something similar, one for members and one for leaders. I cannot imagine that Jesus, given all options, would choose to live among the wealthiest citizens in the most landscaped, luxurious part of the city. There are also a lot of factors that go into measuring ones wealth, not just the dollar value of ones house; and there are a lot of things that go into measuring ones character, other than how much money one has or the kind of house one lives in. Todd raised 6 kids there and has never take a big salary. I think I have a pdf copy of a ten year old one. Women have gotten to the point where they thing their poop doesnt stink lately. If by community you mean meeting with like-minded individuals to foster friendships & develop relationships then great. This is absolutely nothing like a Joel Osteen situation. a lavish lifestyle is contrary to everything Jesus stood for if Jesus still matters, and if anyone actually remembers. Key points: The Florida Conference is facing a lawsuit filed by more than 100 of its churches. And Elder Kyle Thompson tearfully described how God had used Wagner to disciple and grow and to model for me what faithfulness looks like more than anybody else, period., Elder Mickey Friedrich then urged the church not to try and judge whose version of events is right or wrong. Todd was my counselor at Kanakuk Camps for a summer. business Top 100. Being your authentic self in community with others is the goal, they say. Wow. Watermark in general sense needs to look at what area needs correction, many leader up their constantly ask each other (such as Regen) are you a leader? While God does allow humans to have free will, His greatest gift to every human is salvation and eternal life, through believing that He sent His son as a sacrifice for our sins. Childcare was free. Perfectly said Scottie. After hearing Todds sermon, I left the building thinking pride comes before the fall will be evidenced in that man someday. So recent events are unsurprising to me. How many times have you actually talked to Todd? Not Todds decision but good try on the poor stewardship bit. We've put together a list of some ways . Move away 2.Join another (approved) church 3. Below are screenshots of their membership covenant. Genuine question, The house was given to him from a member of the church years ago. As per usual, all white and all males. If you are going to judge Watermark, its leaders and programs, then I would encourage you to do so in the context of Scripture, especially the New Testament, including the gospels and the epistles that talk about church order, and yes, even discipline. As a result, at least 19 diocese and religious orders have had to file for bankruptcy. yes, things do not add up. The womans story you shared sounded like her personal interpretation of events that has no factual evidence to back it up.. We areRead more . You guys can rip apart our church and Todd all you want, but I know him, and you wont find a man with more of a heart of gold than him. What does all white and all males have to do absolutely anything with regard to this situation? Over the years, Wagner has been dogged by allegations of spiritual abuse published on a blog called No Eden Elsewhere. Synopsis of the case is as follows. I came to watermark on a visit with my sons family. Let me guessthe PASTORS of this church DONT have to be real and disclose THEIR salaries, sins, struggles.right???? How can you be under church discipline if you leave the church? christian leaders who are not straightforward and forthright cannot be healthy. Another requirement for membership is that you find an area in which to serve in the church. This gives freedom to members who may still be working through some of their beliefs while also holding the elders to a higher standard. Smarmy Thesaurus I am certainly not an atheist and am a regular church attender. I keep coming back to this because something just doesnt seem right. Also resigned is David Leventhal, an elder and teaching pastor at Watermark, who said he had lost trust in Wagner's leadership. But please make sure your referencing the right guy. Worth 1-2 million. Watermark is very good at many things but also very bad at a few. 1 Thessalonians 5:21 Once you see it, you cant unsee it. Hes definitely not perfect, but he is a good and Godly man who preached the gospel boldly and consistently. To become a member, there are certain things with which a person has to be in agreement, of course; but if a person becomes an elder, then what is expected is more clearly defined. Sounds like the perfect target for attack, I was looking at Watermarks governance section on its website and two things stuck out to me: 1) they have 2 doctrinal statements, one for members and one for elders and 2) they are Elder-Rule, Elder-Led. As stated above, dont confuse Todd Wagner the billionaire with Todd Wagner the pastor though Todd Wagner the pastor does live in a home valued between 1 and 2 million dollars. The church also produces a popular marriage curriculum called re|engage that is used in more than 370 churches nationwide. In the end, I do think it is a matter of opinion, but I think churches should lean toward transparency. I think you need to expand on the 4B Spiritual Assessment forms. That church is huge and has 2 campuses (at least) so I find it hard to believe you even know these elders yourself. And, there was zero pressure from church leadership to do so. If the answer or NONE then you need to look at your own lives and see if correction is needed. She has never seriously considered getting involved with the church beyond that, but has expressed to me that it is quite difficult to actually get connected at Watermark Church because everything is centered around MEMBERSHIP and COMMUNITY GROUPS and you cant have one without the other. It definitely wasnt the first thing that we did (nor was sharing our life maps, as *Susan* said was her experience). The announcement was captured on video and posted online with a statement from the elders. If you dont want to be a member at Watermark you dont have to be.Read more , There is a difference between positional authority and spiritual authority. If the things she claims were stated from the pulpit are true, there should be plenty of documentation. Im sorry to hear of judgement that has been passed around. Small group of meeting once a week. We could look to God's Word for the answers. That is only for the married folk. We did one a week, so this stretch over several weeks. -, Watermark Community Church has believers SIGN My daughter occasionally attends their weekly singles service, The Porch, which she enjoys. I went back several times others preached but werent as good holding an audiences attention as Todd Wagner and the full content with historical and life referces and quoting scripture just wasnt there like Todd Wagner.. then they said Watermark Plano was becoming its own church. I have never met so many people using the term spiritual abuse asRead more , Concern, Who are you to judge!? Shame on you folks. Paul, thanks for the response. TWW last left Wagner on leave due to pride in Todd Wagner, the Controversial Pastor of Watermark Church, Steps Away *for a Season. Its clear as mud. 1 Pet 2:25 Does anyone know if the Re:Engage marriage program that Watermark started is worthwhile? it simply looks very bad. Love you Todd But, a money maker? Maybe Im straining at a gnat. If your Parents were not rich and someone. Then check your heart. It is the Lord Jesus who is in control after all folks. It is an interesting discussion. What a strange and often sad world much of American white evangelicalism has become. Some of the most notable settlements are described below. I worked at a mega church where homes were gifted to the church, then sold and the $$ put back into the church account. Thats the other dallas todd wagner who is mark cubans partner. Take Your Power Back we all know many invested their heart and lives into this place, only to be punished and abused when their performance was not up to the public image WM wanted society to perceive of their organization. Re|Engage at other churches may be worthwhile. According to a report by National Public Radio, the Catholic Church has paid more than $3 billion in child sexual abuse lawsuit settlements in America alone. God has allowed the clarity and conviction that I need to not leave a snarky comment, to dry up.. Our church has an elder-type rule that is healthy, but I know of churches that have had an elder-type rule that is not so healthy. Before coming to Watermark, I never knew the Bible could be applied to my life. Best wishes to the church members, though. Below are screenshots of their membership covenant. A lower court has already ruled that the church is free to release private information about its members. As the CG leader, I went first. Wagner was tearful during his speech in the video Sunday. Some titles of articles written about Watermark Church. The gift tax is only levied at the end of someones life when they exceed the gift tax exclusion in their lifetime (which is currently set at $11.7 million per individual). Life Stage Care and Recovery Equipping Outreach Serve Community Groups. There is so much judgement on here it has to hurt the heart of God. I went to a church with a broadly evangelical membership statement coupled with a specifically Calvinistic, and specifically young earth creationist, teaching statement. Im happy to answer any questions, but you need to know this is absolutely wrong information. According to Watermark Church, I guess we werent doing it right. In January, Wagner returned from leave to preach his first sermon and received a standing ovation from the congregation. Of course, God has a very different definition of success than we do. Not to mention that even if the words are perfect its up to the listeners as to how they interpret it. You can tailor it to your groups needs I asked Susan if she wouldnt mind answering a few questions for this post, which she was happy to do. If you dont fill out the form you can leave easy if your just quiet. By our measure our savior Jesus was a total and complete failure. Jesus is is merely a mascot and a marketing word. When you login first time using a Social Login button, we collect your account public profile information shared by Social Login provider, based on your privacy settings. Came off as legalistic trolling. Another requirement for membership is that you find an area in which to serve in the church. You are probably the person ego roles in Lexuss each day when you pull in the church but if Lord has gifted something you are too quick to put that person under the bus. 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